Making A Living?

Not anymore.

I made a living in photography from 1982 until 2008 and it's been downhill from there.

In 2006 I went to the WPPI convention in Las Vegas and there were about 6000 attendees averaging 15 years in business. By 2009 there were 30,000 attendees averaging 4 years in business. In 2012 there were 65,000 attendees with an average of 2 years in business.

I have 3 friends who each averaged around $500,000 a year in gross stock licensing fees in the mid 80's. They're down to $5000 or less.

I worked for wedding studios that did 100 - 300 weddings a year from the 70's - the mid 2000's. The few who are barely still in business as doing less than 20 per year.

There are a few people doing very high end weddings and portraits making a lot of money, but when you look into their backgrounds, they come from very wealthy families and their clients are people they had personal connections to before they started their businesses.

That is just a brutal set of numbers.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

David Smith, that sums it up! Thank you.

Conventions are a huge business! But those numbers are incredible.
I just did a Groupon search and was blown away at the prices!

https://www.groupon.com/browse/san-diego?lat=32.719&lng=-117.164&address=San+Diego&query=Portraits&division=san-diego&locale=en_US

Those are bad numbers and pretty much go along with what I was thinking. It's such a shame.

When it comes to portraits, we are competing against these new photographers who are charging $50 per session because they just want to do it as a hobby and not a business. I had to drop my prices because people don't seem to care about quality anymore. They just want a cheap photo session. I've done professional headshots for businesses and thought about adding more commercial photography, but I just don't have time with my other businesses.

There are a few photographers here that make a good living at it, but they also have spouses who work so they don't need to make set amount each month to pay bills.

Wow, See My Photos! Those are staggering low!!! That's just nuts!

The studio in NY that I used to shoot 60-70 weddings a year for is only holding on because the owners son is an extremely talented and hard working videographer. He pees blood after every job. Micheal Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones are among his clients. They used to do 125 -130 still jobs a year. They have 15 this year.

They used to do around 200 portrait sessions a year, babies, family groups, 1st communions/confirmations, etc. None this year.

There's an over supply of photographers and digital and the internet has shortened the technical and creative learning curve so much that people go into business without learning any business skills. So you get people shooting below cost who don't even know how to calculate CODB.

Jennifer

$50 is the expected rate all over the country thanks to social media.

I know of people charging $2000 - $3000 per portrait session, with sales up to $20,000, but they are well established in very wealthy areas where people brag about how much they pay for things rather than how good a deal they got.

There may be 50,000 people like that in the country, good luck connecting with them.

From 125 to only 15 is just crazy. I'm sure in NY the competition is even more complicated too. Even with weddings in our area, there are photographers charging $200!! I lot of them end up with unhappy clients, or just medicore photos, but people still go to them.

Well, businesses that do groupon are relying on the fact that only about 10-15% of the coupons get used, which is why groupon recommends a 90% discount.

I run into Mom's with a camera all the time running a "photography business" selling lifestyle sessions to other Moms. I don't think they make a living at it. Just some spare cash once in a while.

At least they don't have much invested in it. They have a Facebook account and DSLR with a 70-200mm.

My advice is to find something to do outside of photography to keep a steady income. I do real estate photography and the company I worked for just folded because they couldn't get enough money for a shoot. They offered top quality and HDR, sky replacement etc and had the editing done by professionals in India for pennies. A guy i know who was doing weddings and events just announced that because he bought a wide angle lens, he was now qualified to shoot RE. His basic package is $50.00. On some of the shoots I do the agent is following me around with a camera, trying to duplicate my shots. One agent even said that she just bought a $3000 camera and didn't need me anymore. She doesn't even know how to level the camera. I am now working with one of the largest and oldest RE photography firms. They are dead in the water. Their old pricing is not working and I am attending a luncheon Friday where they will announce the new prices and marketing plan. I know the new marketing plan involves photographers knocking doors because they already sent me the brochures.
As mentioned other areas of photography are just as bleak. Photography is no longer recognized as something that takes special skill. And it is true, to a large extent. Plus young people grew up with a camera taking photos all day. At least some have developed an eye and some basic editing skills.

I have had a few realtors from networking groups ask me if I do RE photography but I've never heard back from them. Some aren't even realtors anymore. We have twice as many realtors as there are homes here so that market is tough too. I have had some come up to me asking if I could teach them. I've helped a few local photographers by getting them on FAA and teaching them about marketing and some camera skills. Maybe I should charge to give them advise lol. That probably wouldn't fly either.

Yes, these kids who take the artistic selfies all day have replaced a lot of photographers. My uncle used to make a living with photography back in the 60's. Just seems like every area of photography is hurting, even in commercial because businesses either don't want to market, or they are doing it as cheap as possible and using own equipment.

I shot a couple of weddings as gifts to the brides and grooms. One couple are friends of my daughter and her grandmother was a friend of my grandmother. The other I did for a very close friend. I did everything I could to learn about what works and what doesn't, lighting, poses, documentation, more over I set their expectations as I am not a professional wedding photographer. I learned a lot. And I mean a lot. The sheer number of hours that going into planning and working with the couple, the 12+ hour day of the wedding and the rehearsal beforehand, and the post processing and culling of the shots. All in all both couples were happy, as am I, with the results.

There's a reason a real wedding photographer charges what they charge.

How anyone can think that shooting a wedding is an easy thing boggles my mind. Then again It's pretty clear there is no preparation, nor understanding of lighting, nor of the difference between a snapshot and a portrait. As Edward, I've seen some things at weddings that almost made me cry for the bride. One time I saw an SLR on a $10 tripod with the legs nearly closed, the center stem at full height, and the whole thing tottering back and forth as the woman doing the shooting was standing on tiptoes to get her eye on the viewfinder. That couple will never have photos of their wedding.

I have an old college roommate who thought he could run a business targeting the low end. In his case a hair cut salon franchise.

The base price for a hair cut is around $15. His plan was to open a string of these places.

He got the first one open and spent a couple of years trying to build up a base of customers using promotions and Groupon type deals. $4 haircuts. $6 haircuts. All he did is attract cheap customers who could care less where they went to get a hair cut. They'd get their bargin haircut and shop around for the next deal.

And his service offered nothing special. You didn't even develop a relationship with the stylist. You just get the next chair available.

Keep in mind this guy has a MBA in finance but still couldn't figure out you can't sustain a business on low margins and no product differentiation.

Try to base a business by offering a commodity service at the lowest price and you'll never get anywhere except bankruptcy.

Edward, many chains are out there that sound like what your friend was trying to do. Supercuts, Great Cuts etc. As far as I know they are very successful.

If you are meaning a living on POD some do it here. As far as photography in general many shoot all kinds of work to make ends meet. Even top landscape photographers have a hard time making a living and offer workshops to make ends meet.

I sell to a publication that has treated me well the past couple of years but I will not give up my day job. I do this for me first and would love it to be my job but not if I have to compromise by doing jobs I would not normally take on.

Myself I don't see POD's as a place to earn a consistent income that you can rely on and as stated, to succeed it will involve face to face selling and lots of marketing.

As far as dollars they add up and many a person has become wealthy by making those dollars, depends a lot on what you do with them when you get them.

Edward - Yes I've seen that too. My other full time business is as a franchise owner, I publish a high quality newsletter magazine for an affluent neighborhood. I met a hair salon manager a couple years ago who wanted to get away from groupon, etc, because all they were getting were those cheap customers who went from place to place with a coupon, wouldn't build relationships with stylist, and wouldn't tip the stylist. She wanted to advertise in my magazine to turn the business around but the owner wouldn't go for it. He preferred groupon, etc. They are now out of business.

Bonfire, that's great that you sell to a publication! That would be cool. A couple years ago I met a guy who is one of the very few lucky ones who gets to make a living and travel for his fine art. He has an agent that represents him and he has clients who actually request specific photos from specific areas. He travels all over and he also teaches photography.

The longer I've been involved in this art "business" the lower my expectations have become, to the point now where I have none. Anybody that makes any profit at all at this amazes me, let alone those few that earn a full time living at it.

Agree David. We spend hours editing, promoting/marketing and don't even get close to make minimum wage for most of us and that never even covers our expensive equipment.

Toby - he purchased one of the major franchises. Actually three franchise licenses but then quickly figured out that the low end business model relies on finding dirt cheap rents with high walk by traffic. Tough to do when the economy is on the upswing.

Took him the first year just to find the first location. He left the business before he could even find the other two locations.

The margins are so thin in the low end, if you don't have tremendous volume, you won't make it.

....

I rented a house in Bar Harbor to a guy who purchased the Subway in town. Subway is a successful business most of the time also. But he couldn't make it work in the seasonal town and skipped out in the middle of the night owing me rent and stiffing other suppliers after a few years.

I think it is possible to make a living at photography - IF, huge if, you are in the right place at the right time and know your audience.

Making a living with art is almost as difficult - unless you are in the right place, a place where there is some call for it and you can attend to it at shows, festivals and galleries.

I look at many of the 'photographers' photographs on FAA and even my own photo's - and I be really surprised when I do find those that are "making a living" at it. I look at the 'recently sold' - that will tell you almost all you would like to know. Look at those photographs that do sell - are they the kind of photographs you take.

Very few well known, museum collected photographers even make a living solely on their photography.

I was just reading about Walker Evans and how he had to work for Fortune magazine to make a living. Most artists supplement their living with teaching or something else.

Used to, but now I do other things alongside. I now run workshops, 1-2-1’s and have branched out into videography and aerial photography. Having a background in broadcast video has helped with the latter.

Sure if you let them know, they will buy it and try to sell it back to you.

Domains are cheap. Buy them as soon as you think of the name.

I have edwardfielding.com and dogfordstudios.com

Not making a living money but my last month of FAA earnings enabled me to replace my heavily used and slightly abused Sony RX100 II camera with the RX100 VI model.

That RX100 II has easily been one of my best investments in this endeavor, I'm hoping the new one is too.

I agree with what Jennifer is saying about naming, that's why I didn't use my real name. Although I own tobymcguire.com my name gets mixed up with the actor in google.

Thanks Edward. I checked out the website of what I wanted and don't think they'll change since it's their name. I was waiting to get the domain name from the host since it was free but hadn't decided on host yet. Both said I would own the domain name. Where did you get your domain name from Edward?

Nice to meet another sony shooter Toby! I'm a Sony photographer too but I use the alpha series.

My primary camera is actually a Nikon D750, the RX100 is a high quality pocket camera, it really doesn't drop that much off in quality compared to the DSLRs. It's awesome for when you can't or don't want to lug your gear around. You can still get high quality images that can print big.

I chose Nikon originally because I had a friend who let me use a few of their lenses lol. Now of course I am well invested into that ecosystem.

LOVE the Sony RX100 line though.

Funny, I went with Canon because, wait for it, I had a friend nearby that could lend me lenses. As in Toby's situation, I now have too much money in my own glass AND have muscle memory for all the Canon functions so will stay with it. I have an Olympus Tough for walkabout and super close macros.

LOL JC. My husband bought me my first Sony about 15 years ago and I've just stayed with them because like everyone else, I have so much invested in lenses and they have a different mount so... At the time, they promised more lenses for A-mount. That's my one complaint about Sony is lack of lens selection. Instead of making more A-mount like they said, they of course they came out with the new mirrorless and created a bunch of new lenses but made it a different mount so doesn't help me out any.

There were a couple times early on when I didn't have all that many lenses and for that matter pretty much had the body and one 50mm and had long since moved away from my lens borrowing ability.

When I went to get a new body I seriously considered Sony and Nikon and it came down to two things that kept me with Canon. I eliminated Sony for the exact reason you specified. Nikon and Canon had around 4x the lens selection that Sony did. The choice of Canon and Nikon came down to the muscle memory. I can subconsciously adjust settings on my Canon without thinking about it. I would have to retrain myself with either of the other two. (Pentax didn't have a full frame sensor body back then and was also low on lens selection choices.)

Godaddy is notorious for people poaching domains searched through their website. Basically if you don't register immediately it somehow ends up with someone else within a day. I think that poachers have hacked the various registrars and can see the whois searches.

Spent 2 days spitballing domain names with a friend for a business idea we were kicking around and came up with about a dozen. Checked them through godaddy and they were all available. Spent another day deciding which one we wanted to go with and it was gone. 2nd choice gone, 3rd choice gone, all the way down the line. And it wasn't as if they were all variations on one name.

I started in the 7th grade with Minolta (film). Had 5 bodies and 13 lenses by the time I got out of high school. Bought Hasselblads and 4x5 for my wedding and commercial work. Occasionally needed 35mm for commercial clients and had art directors questioning the Minoltas, so I traded them in at a huge loss for Nikon. Moved from Nikon manual focus to auto focus to digital. At the time I needed to switch to digital for weddings Nikon had no plans to make a full frame camera, so when Canon came out with the 5D I switched again.

No more switching systems for me unless I hit the lottery.

I started with Nikon (as in film camera) because all my fellow photojournalists used them and I could share lenses and stuff. But then when I went digital I was no longer a professional photojournalist so I went Pentax because you get more bang for your buck, and the investment I had in Nikon didn't matter so much then.

David - That figures. I wonder if all the names I searched for today will be gone tomorrow and now I've run out of time to do anything else about it today! So frustrating. Time is never on my side. This is why I'd like to just narrow things down to 1 or 2 businesses instead of 4!

I know I'm going to get a lot of different opinions on this, but what do you guys prefer? wordpress.org or wordpress.com.

Wordpress.org.
It is a bit more time intensive and costs a bit because you need to have your own hosting and domain name. However, then YOU control everything you post and can make all decisions about what works best for you. I currently have a dozen wordpress (dot org) implementations running on a variety of websites (one example: www.FortMcHenry.net). I also have a couple of commercial websites that I actually code the pages for and pull product information from datafeeds (one example: www,BusinessChecks.org).


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~ Bill
BillSwartwout.com

Thanks Bill. I found a hosting site that comes with .org & it's cheap $2.95/mo if you pay for 3 years. Domain is free & WordPress program is free. Do Have to pay for privacy domain.

The "Privacy" is an upsell that is no longer really needed. WHOIS services can no longer share full registrant info***.

Privacy on a domain that sells things is also a deterrent for some customers. I "always" do some checking for a site where I am considering a purchase and if I have not dealt with that site/company before. A small business hiding behind a "curtain" will not get my name/address/credit card info. Because of the new privacy laws with domain ownership that make the "checking" a bit harder.

*** Example: https://www.whois.com/whois/fineartamerica.com

That's interesting, Bill. And relieving, frankly. I have a couple of domains without privacy that I've been meaning to get it for. Maybe I won't bother now.


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bestilled.com
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That is interesting Bill. I've often thought that the privacy thing was a little wierd for businesses. If you're going to be in business, then your business info should be public. And in reality, if you're on the internet, there's nothing private anyways.

@ Jennifer - "If you're going to be in business, then your business info should be public. And in reality, if you're on the internet, there's nothing private anyways."

Exactly.

duplicate

Thank you everyone for the advise. I took a step this week and got my own website. Per some suggestions, I put my name and initials of my business in the domain since I was having such a hard time finding one that wasn't taken. I quickly put sometihing together to start, so it's not complete but it's a start. Now I just have to figure out what to do about getting into more blogging.

www.jenniferwhitetmphoto.com

"The "Privacy" is an upsell that is no longer really needed. WHOIS services can no longer share full registrant info***. "

... thanks for sharing that, Bill... good to know!

Jennifer - Nicely done. Actually quite impressive for just getting started.

Joy - You're welcome.

Thank you Bill!

Another step complete to getting more exposure. Just started my wordpress blog.

https://jenniferwhitetmphoto.wordpress.com/blog/

I'm still trying to learn how it works. The more links I can get to lead people to AW site can't hurt.

I came across this video and wanted to share with anyone considering photography full time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtyFRcdhxI

I have a question. Has anyone ever done an art least program for businesses?

I've heard about this before but forgot about it until I read an article today on a local fine art photographer who has a lease program. Businesses pay so much a month and she switches out the the art how ever often they agree upon, or they can lease to buy.