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Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Mouse Vs Tablet And Stylus

I've just spent time doing some tedious PS work on a couple of photos. I had to neatly cut out some odd-shaped sections that included curves, which meant tedious work with the mouse and PS's "magnet lasso" and other tools. Doing that fine-detail work - like following curves - with the mouse is slow and fatiguing.

I'd like to hear from anyone doing photo retouching using a tablet, or other whiz-bang technology of today - for example, I think you can lay the display of the new Microsoft Surface Studio flat on your desk and use a stylus on it directly.

Anyone doing things like this?

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Bill Posner

5 Years Ago

I use a Wacom tablet attached to my Mac and it is wonderful, pressure sensiteve so depending what you are doing you can adjust brush just by pressing harder or software and change brushes on the fly. Mouse now seems like a tool from the 90s lol

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I've never used a tablet so I don't "get" why they'd be so much better. You're just gripping a smaller object. I guess i need to try one.

Pressure sensitivity, now that's possibly useful.

 

Bill Posner

5 Years Ago

Well, it's a personal thing, for sure, for me, it's more like drawing, and holding the tablet pen is less tiring and prevent the button clicking. The one I have is very much like using a pencil to sketch as the pressure works similarly. Especially for thing like dodge and burn, you can get really detailed in corners and shadows fading seems easier. Again it's a personal thing.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

What model should i get?

 

David King

5 Years Ago

Jim, anyway you cut it, it's tedious. I absolutely hate doing that kind of work digitally and my new series of pop art I came up with requires some of that but at least high precision isn't necessary but still I don't know how much more of it I can stand to do. lol I found the only real advantage to a tablet is pressure sensitivity, which doesn't help for what you're doing, in fact you'll probably want to turn pressure sensitivity off while doing those things, the pen can be more precise however. I have a Surface Pro and haven't used it in a long time. The small screen is a bit of a detriment and it's still hard to be precise due to the parallax error because of the glass between your stylus and the screen. I'd love to have a Studio Pro but man are they pricey!

 

Mike Savad

5 Years Ago

for general cut outs, i use the magic wand circle thing, it works very well. or i will do a rough cut out, using a mouse, making a mask out of it and using median to round off the rough areas. and get a pretty smooth finish.

a tablet is nice, but you run into the same issues, its hard to maintain the curve. i still do it in small segments, erasing as i go with a shortcut on the tablet. otherwise i may use a pen and trace around it.

a pen is something that's easier to hold than a mouse, and you have more control, pressure ability and a further reach. i can't use a mouse for the shading and coloring i do. but its a pain to use on menus, so a mouse is used for that.


i have a wacom intous medium. small isn't sensitive enough, large is too big. the larger the device, the more your arm has to travel. medium is a good size and its still pretty large.

the difference between a pen and a mouse -- have you ever tried to write something with a big clumsy stick? that's a mouse. if you had a shorter stick where you can apply pressure better, that's a pen.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

 

Roger Swezey

5 Years Ago

Neither of the above

I found the mouse was not only difficult for me to control, but an additional mechanical step separating me from the work produced.

And as with the "Tablet-Stylus" method, I never got around to buying one...And now, I'm afraid to buy one....(I'll tell you why at the end of this posting)

I've become comfortable using my right forefinger and the lap-top pad.

Art Prints
This is an actual Scribbler Too digital drawing, using my right forefinger on my lap-top pad.

To me, that actual tactile feeling, as with tradition media, creates a truer form of art.

Now, why I'm hesitant using a stylus:

Until I had a computer in front of me, I created all the various forms of art, using my LEFT HAND, but with the computer it's my RIGHT HAND.

I fear that my brain will be very confused (more than it already is) if I get a stylus

 

Dan Turner

5 Years Ago

Jim, the comparison I've heard a lot on tablet vs mouse -- one is like drawing with a pen, the other is like drawing with a potato. For drawing and fine retouching that's true.

I have a 12" Intuos, but I only use it for exactly what you are describing and I usually grab it after I'm frustrated with the mouse. I should grab it sooner rather than later!

A note for anyone using the latest version of Photoshop: There is now a top "Select Subject" menu button when you have the magic wand tool selected. Press it! It does a fabulous job of selecting your subject so you can eliminate the background (or whatever else you want to do with the selection). If it's a really difficult selection it will get you semi-close with one click, then you still have the tedious task of doing the fine detail.


Dan Turner
Dan Turner's Seven Keys to Selling Art Online

 

Murray Bloom

5 Years Ago

Jim, like most, I started out using a mouse. Tedious and sometimes cramping, but it worked. Trackballs didn't. I tried a small tablet, but was unhappy with the scaling. The movements on the tablet were much smaller than what would appear on the screen, another no-go. Later on, I bought Wacom's Intuous, the large model. The scaling feels completely natural with my 27" monitor, and the pen features are great. I highly recommend it. It also comes with a mouse that works on the tablet. It's basic, but it works.

I've been itching to get their Cintiq model, where you're drawing right on a large image, but haven't been able to justify the cost thus far.

Here's what it all looked like a few years back:

Photography Prints

 

Jon Glaser

5 Years Ago

Well, this is my wheelhouse. Istarted using a wacom years ago. Why? It felt like writing more than anything else. then i got so comfortable i stared using the express keys. Thats even better. Those tasks that yourepeat overand over can be programmed like key strokes or shortcuts. Anything. Wait, it gets better, i purchased the surface studio in february and its just like drawing on a canvas. A tablet,or cintique is the best thing for creative work. Here is nothing more gratifying then creating direcly onthe screen. My advice would be a cintique if our a mac user and a surface if your a pc guy. A good entry would be a wacom. You will spend about 300 or so on a new wacom. Alot depends upon budget too.

I was a mac user but switched when apple came out with sub par hardware. The studio is awesome, but very large. The screen is great for detail, but too big almost. Unless i changed viewing area i have to make large arm movements to edit. That was one of the things i liked about the wacom. You can map out your drawing area. So i picked up a used surface pro on ebay to drawwhile watching tv or when on an adventure away from home and want to edit.

Also i downloaded tabletpro to substute for expess keys

 

Joseph Westrupp

5 Years Ago

What's "median", Mike?


—————
bestilled.com
Click this ^
< Not that

 

Abbie Shores

5 Years Ago

The median is the value separating the higher half of a data sample, a population, or a probability distribution, from the lower half. For a data set, it may be thought of as the "middle" value

Or so says Wiki

Okkkkkkkk then?!

 

Denise Beverly

5 Years Ago

i have trouble using a stylus and having to look on the monitor for what i am doing.i have had more luck drawing with the mouse than the stylus.
i have the wacom bamboo and a wacom intuos but neither feels right for me. i want one that i can draw on the device screen, like the Surface,rather than trying to look on my monitor and find my cursor.

 

Susan Maxwell Schmidt

5 Years Ago

Why spend $4K+ when you can buy an iPad Pro and Apple Pencil for a quarter of that? And the art apps are endless. Seriously... many hundreds of 'em. Mebbe even thousands. Wouldn't trade mine for the world (though I was pretty good with a touch pad or Wacom when I still did art on a PC).

___________
Susan Maxwell Schmidt
So-so Board Moderator and
Artist Extraordinaire

 

Mike Savad

5 Years Ago

median, is a way to control noise in photoshop, it also rounds masks. NOISE>Median

it has the ability to clump noise and sort of blur it in a natural way where edges of things are maintained. its great for cleaning a sky without creating Gaussian blur sprites. used on a mask, it will round things. or on a solid object. start with a square, use median and it will round the corners off like a fillet.


a tablet is useful, but i know of people who can't use it at all. too used to a mouse. its hard to get over that where your pen is on the tablet, that's where the cursor is. where as a mouse doesn't care. when i use one, i don't use the entire thing, i use one area and pan to where i need to go. i've seen people do amazing things with mice, but some things are left to a pen. the wacom is about $400 i think. unless you get those fancy in screen models. but i don't want to have to look down at it, my neck would hate me. and if my neck hates me it will leave. and then where would my head mount?


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

 

Judy Whitton

5 Years Ago

I do a LOT of tedious work and I can not imagine having to do that with a regular mouse. My daughter started using photoshop before I did. She bought a big Wacom tablet, basically because she was using it for art, not photography. Well, one day I decided to try it out for my photography and I was hooked! I decided I didn't need one as big as hers and bought the Wacom Intuos 3 4x5. I have been using it for over 10 years now and can't imagine life without it. It has replaced a regular mouse and pad. I use the tablet with mouse for web surfing and what not. But, when it comes to editing my photos, I use the pen tool only. It took a little getting used to the pen tool, but once you do, you will never look back.

 

David King

5 Years Ago

"Why spend $4K+ when you can buy an iPad Pro and Apple Pencil for a quarter of that? "

Because the screen is very small. I bought a Surface Pro (you can put any Windows program on that, not just "apps") over three years ago, I haven't touched it in months. It's definitely better than using a mouse for doing what Jim is asking about but having to constantly zoom in and out is a pain, and it's screen is bigger than an Ipad. I like my big monitor on my computer, it's a little easier on these old eyes.


I actually have a Wacom Intuos I bought years ago, but I could never get it to work right on my laptop that was my previous computer while leaving the mouse still active, it was jumpy and irratic. I just can't do regular computer tasks with a pen alone. I've never tried it with my desktop that replaced my laptop, maybe I should but the other issue is real estate on my desk is rather tight.

 

Jon Glaser

5 Years Ago

DOnt forget the buttons or express keys.IF you perform any task three times or more a shortcut is needed..I also created actions in PS..And even use palette gear when it suites me for a tactile more precise adjustment. ITs all fun and great..Even my mouse has extra buttons to perform tasks..I just have to remember everything..LOL

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

I have the medium Intos5 Wacom. I have used it in a few pieces. But I do not like it. Now if I made it my focus for my production, I could grow into it.

My mouse is a laser one. If you started with mouse balls, you are not going to like a mouse.

I zoom to 200% and the detail is easy with a mouse. I work extremely fast with a mouse.

I felt like I was juggling the stylus, because there are two buttons near where I would naturally grip the stylus. That really messes me up.

Also something about working with a 24" screen on a very large desk with the Wacom board in my lap was off putting. I did not really try to learn the feel for how to control it. It was cumbersome. How far I sit form the desk v. the edge of the desk and where to place the Wacom board, and then put it down for other controls on my keyboard.

The mouse next to the keyboard controls was much easier for me. YMMV

I work extremely fast and love my natural routine. I have done endless cut outs.

Dave

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Hmmmm.

I use Elements, not the full PS, but I don't think that matters. And I use the magnetic lasso, 'refine edge', feathering, all that stuff - it's following edges by hand that gets tiring.


@Jon Glaser, you actually popped for the Surface Studio - wow. There's a Microsoft store near my house, I can go there and drool over the Studio, but it's still $4K, and like you say, it's actually too big. If MS was serious about making hardware they'd have a range of Studio models at different prices and sizes.

I see that people react differently to tablets, and I'm actually good with the mouse, it just gets tiring. So the only thing to do is get a tablet and try it. I'm on Windows and not going to become an Apple guy at this point in life.





 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Jim,

I would never use the Magic Lasso. It does not work well enough for me. Possibly most of your headache.

Dave

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Dave - I think you're referring to the Magic Wand. That selects an area based on color match. The Magnetic Lasso tries to track an edge - sometimes it works well, sometimes it needs a lot of help.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

ah magnetic lasso.

Actually depending on the job I use the Quick Selection Tool or the Magic Wand.

Dave

PS do you use the alt key to toggle back and forth when correcting the edges?

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I started looking at Wacom tablets online and of course they have a confusing range of models. The "pro" is supposedly much more accurate - well duh, who wants to save money by buying a "less accurate" tablet? I'm wondering if this difference is really significant, or just marketing baloney. Those of you with Wacom Intuos, do you have the Pro model?

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Leslie Montgomery

5 Years Ago

Great timing for this topic as I have been looking into Wacom tablets. I do fine with my mouse but I am left handed. It took me a little longer than most to adapt to using a mouse period but after years of practice I am pretty good at it now, except that it takes me so much longer to do anything precise in PS. If I can use my left hand and a pen too I think I could do so much better.

My problem now is trying to understand which wacom to buy. I am not near the Cintique price range but the Intuos looks pretty amazing to me anyway. I know that the medium size is better than the small for not only ease of use but also has larger resolutions but other than price what is the difference between the Intuos and the Intuos Pro?

 

Jon Glaser

5 Years Ago

Robert,funny cause i just switched to pc after years with Mac. There was no reason why apple couldnt produce a desktop like a cintique or surface studio.

 

Mike Savad

5 Years Ago

its so easy to lose that pen, and so expensive to replace. i lost one once, still don't know where it went. the tablet was new and never really got to use it. now i watch the new one like a hawk.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

 

Paul Velgos

5 Years Ago

I have a Wacom and have never gotten used to it. I keep going back to the mouse. It's personal preference.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I ordered a Deco.

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

"I ordered a Deco." - Jim


I used Wacom for a long time until I upgraded and no matter what I did, the driver did not want to cooperate (a common problem I found out), so that, and the virtually non existent support of Wacom, I ordered some time ago an XP-Pen Deco-03 and I love it. Best tablet I ever used for 1/2 the price of a Wacom and those XP-Pen people actually care.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I now have the Deco 3 connected. Initially, I'm totally at sea, fumbling around in 'tablet' mode as opposed to 'mouse' mode. Seems very awkward at first, having to 'hover' and locate a spot on screen, then bring the pen down where I want it - instead of mousing there and clicking. This is as expected. The defaults for the programmable keys and wheel are for Photoshop, and I use PS Elements, I think there are differences in hot keys. I'll want to reprogram those, and the wheel, and maybe the pen buttons as well. There isn't much 'help' in the User Manual, which is not the worst Chinglish I've encountered, but still contains some head-scratchers.

 

Judy Whitton

5 Years Ago

Just give it some time. You'll have an initial adjustment period, but after you get the hang of it, you will never look back!!

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

Jim, I believe you can customize that hovering setting or turn it off completely. I would have to look up how though, it has been a while.

The wheel and the buttons should work the same in elements as in PS. I have the wheel programmed to set the brush size. Works like a charme, and I use Affinity Photo

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

@Rudy, brush size, yes that's what i want.

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

Let me see if I can help you out JIm. I agree their manual can use some improvements and I had to do some trial and error myself.

1) Download the driver and the utilities from their website, don't use the CD, it might be outdated.

2) Open the pen properties pop-up. Here you can set the buttons for the pen, which is pretty straight forward. The other settings are pretty straight forward too. I do recommend though to pull the curve slightly down on the sensitivity curve tool. In the middle of the curve and only a touch. That keeps it still sensitive, but slightly less jumpy if you know what I mean.

3) Click on "Express keys". On that screen, the first thing you need to do is to go to that big field on the top with the icon that says "Other" click on the plus sign on the right side and add the. exe file for PSElements. Once you did that, make sure you click it so the tablet knows that is the program you want the tablet to work with.

4) click on the "Keys" button right underneath that field. This is where you program the keys to whatever you want those keys to do. Those function keys and the dial are basically shortcuts to your program keyboard shortcuts so you need to know the keyboard shortcuts. Click on the first key that says "Function Key" that gives you a little pull down, click on "function key" again. that gives you a pop up and where it says shortcut is where you enter you program key board action. Give it a name and Click OK and on to the next function key. E.G. in my case the shortcut to 100% zoom is ctrl and 1. so there you would type ctrl 1. if the command is the tab key, then just hit the tab key in that field

5) when done, click on "Dial". and then on "Keyboard "this works the same way, but for reasons unknown to mankind, I had to program the 2 top buttons the same way in order to get it to work. e.g. in my case the keyboard shortcuts for brush size are the bracket keys (I believe PS and PSE is the same.) so where it says KL type [ to reduce the size and for KR type ] to enlarge (or the other way around if that's what you prefer. Give it a name, click OK and you are done

Those function keys and the dial in particular are great in practice. The dial is right there underneath your hand and you don't have to fumble and look for that darn bracket key every time n the half dark and those bracket keys happen to be on the wrong side of the keyboard too if you are right handed and you have to hit them with your left hand lol

If you have an Apple, I am not sure since I don't have an Apple, but I can imagine that everything is the same and just use cmd instead of ctrl

this is pretty much it. Hope it helps. Let me know it it works or not.

BTW you have a new follower. Love your work!


 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

@Rudy, I'm trying to follow this but it's not quite making sense yet. In fact I can't find any description of how this dial configuration works, either in the Deco 3 'user manual' or the XP-Pen web site. And there's no Help button of course.

For the Dial configuration, there are 5 "Functions" dropdowns, each with 3 choices: No Action, Scroll, Keyboard. What does that mean, and why are there 5? The User manual only says "You can also define 4 suites dial functions for it". Huh?

I can't believe there's just no documentation for this configuration UI anywhere. Where did you find out how it all works?

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

as I said, I agree with you the manual is not the greatest and some of it was trial and error with me. That's why I tried to explain it step by step what I did so you don't have to go through the same thing.

I figured that no action means no customization set, scroll is just that and keyboard is for the keyboard action as I tried to explain. Personally I just wanted it for the brush size so I didn't worry too much about the other things.

I think though that with the 4 suits dial function they mean 4 individual software suits besides the one (other) that is already in there plus the one you use (PSE in your case, Affinity in mine), and then 3 other ones and come to think of it, that is probably the season why I had to set the second button and not the first one) I guess you switch from one program to another, each with its own customization. For instance from PSE to Word. You can set the brush size for your PSE and scroll or zoom for word I suppose. i would have to try that out.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Well I got it to work with brush size by setting the first dropdown to 'keyboard' and entering [ and ].

What I'm not getting is - why are there 5 dropdowns? It looks like the wheel can do up to 5 different things but how do you select the one you want?

 

Judy Whitton

5 Years Ago

Jim, have you looked on YouTube to see if there are any instructional videos on how to set it up and use it? That is my go to if I want to know how to do something.

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

YouTube is a good idea.. YouTube is the new Google. Oh wait.........lol

You can also ask xp-pen directly what that means. In my experience their Cust. Serv. Is pretty good. Pls let me know if you find out

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Didn't find anything on youtube but i sent an email.

I've now done a bit of editing with it and am getting to like it. Would be nice if the dial could also control zoom, brush transparency, hardness etc.

 

Mark Tisdale

5 Years Ago

Jim - I don't have that tablet but a quick Google search suggests that you can set the dial to do multiple things, but you also have to assign an express key as a switch to change between them. What I read was for the Mac version of the driver and said that when you switched it flashed on screen what mode you were currently in for the dial.

https://www.parkablogs.com/content/review-xp-pen-deco-03-graphics-drawing-tablet-wireless

My current display tablet doesn't have a dial/wheel, but my Wacom did have its own version - the 'touch ring.' Switching between functions drove me nuts personally. I could never remember what it was currently on and I'd scroll or make my brush size change or something I didn't intend. After awhile I just left it on whatever mode it worked best for me (brush size) and never made use of the ability to swap between settings. The only reason I miss it a little was it was sort of a delimiter in the middle of my buttons. So I could feel the different shaped button and know where I was in the express keys without looking down.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

Yes I eventually found an explanation of how to switch dial modes - XP-Pen doesn't seem to document that anywhere. Now I can switch the dial between brush size and 'zoom'. Unfortunately there are no keyboard shortcuts for opacity up/down - you have to used the number keys and enter digits for the percentage you want, so no way to do that with the dial. That's a letdown but not XP-Pen's fault.

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

where did you find that explanation Jim? I am curious now.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

@Rudy, I eventually found the clue in an online review:

"Also, to use multiple functions on the dial, you need to assign a KL/KR Switch function to one of the 6 expresskeys"

Here's the review:
https://digitalarttabletguides.wordpress.com/2018/04/06/xp-pen-deco-03-review/

It turns out that express key 6 is already set up to do this by default. It cycles through the 5 functions assigned to the dial and on each change, the text 'hint' is shown on the bottom of the display.

 

Rudy Umans

5 Years Ago

Ok great. Thanks

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

While I'm liking the tablet just fine, it seems to be a bit of an unfinished product in some ways. They could sure do themselves a favor by explaining this dial better in the user manual. And the dial has a big convenient button in its center - that does nothing! It isn't even mentioned in the manual or the configuration dialog. Why isn't it used to cycle through the dial functions, instead of giving up an 'express button'? The only possible reason is that the button doesn't work for some reason, maybe an error in laying out the PCB, and they had to work around it with an express key.

 

Mark Tisdale

5 Years Ago

Jim - I saw another reviewer comment on that non-functional button. It may be they simply used a dial that was already existing and never had any intention to wire up the button on it. My display tablet is also a non-wacom one and I get the feeling all of these are built at least in some aspect from off the shelf parts.

Talking about how I missed the delimiter between function keys last night at least gave me the idea to get a little rubber bumper the next time I see one. I can stick that midway in my express key buttons and the bump will tell me where I am without looking. I have a feeling I may have some in a drawer somewhere already.... hmm....

Mark

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I've now used it a bit and of course, for someone who's never used a tablete there's a real learning curve. So far I've found it to be nice with the brush and eraser tools, but frustrating with the polygonal lasso.

 

Leslie Montgomery

5 Years Ago

I ordered the Deco 03 also Jim. I just ordered it the other day but already needed to talk to customer support as there was a mix up between them and paypal. They got right on things and it was resolved and shipped within an hour. I was very impressed.

I imagine I will also be fumbling about at first with it but looking forward to the learning experience. Glad you like it so far even with a glitch or two. It gives me hope. :)

Edit: Rudy I will more than likely be coming back to this thread to go over your information when it is my turn to set up my new tablet. So thank you in advance for the great instructions.

 

Leslie Montgomery

5 Years Ago

My Deco 03 arrived today. So very excited about this.

Thanks to Rudy's instructions I got it set up pretty well with the functions I use the most in PS and so far am doing a lo of doodling. I think I can set it up the same way with Topaz Studio, which I also use a whole lot.

I am sure in a day or two I will be an old pro at this. It is so nice to use my left hand again. I already feel I have better control in general. Maybe with enough practice I can get my hand writing back to what it once was. I find the wheel is very handy for scrolling in my browser.

 

Jim Hughes

5 Years Ago

I actually haven't used mine much yet. But that's usually how it goes - I have no doubt I'll get more into it over time. I have a photo project coming up where the pen should really show its mettle.

 

This discussion is closed.